Power & Security, United States Breaking the National Security Council

Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

This week's episode features John Gans, Perry World House's Director of Communications and Research, and Derek Chollet, Executive Vice President of the German Marshall Fund and a Perry World House Visiting Fellow. 

John Bolton, President Trump’s 3rd National Security Adviser, has made his exit. With change afoot (or maybe not) in the foreign policy apparatus, two of the most well-positioned voices on all things NSC—John Gans and Derek Chollet-- are at the Out of Order table to discuss what went wrong for Bolton, how the national security process has changed under the current administration, and what could come next for a yet-to-be-named successor.

John Gans is the author of White House Warriors, a new book on the National Security Council, and current director of communications at the University of Pennsylvania's Perry World House global policy center. Among other roles, he served as chief speechwriter for Defense Secretary Ash Carter. Derek Chollet is the German Marshall Fund’s Executive Vice President. His previous roles include Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs and Senior Director for Strategic Planning on the National Security Council staff under President Obama.